Free Flight Jet models.

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Free Flight Jet models.

Postby WIDDOG » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:08 pm

Sorry I posted incorrectly on another members Thread. I apologize to the other member. What I wanted to know was could a 1400 Series kit be converted to "Sugar Fuel" or Homemade Rapier motor powered flying model. http://youtu.be/HDnpczHXjDU
Last edited by WIDDOG on Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Wildpig » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:11 pm

I would guess that it could be done. I would also guess that since these models were never intended to fly by any method, that it would require a fair amount of modification to make them flyable.

If you try it, I"ll certainly want to watch your build/fly thread. :)
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby WIDDOG » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:52 pm

Thanks much Gentlemen for the great thoughts.

There is a home recipe for model rocket fuel. It has been around for since the 1920 or 1930's. Primarily it is made of tree stump remover (Potassium Nitrate) and Sugar. It makes a fuel that gives a very good controlled burn and not explode. Also I have heard of modelers putting Bottle Rockets into the 1400 Series kits and flying them. I don't have a clue what I'm talking about but from what I understand the problem with the Estes rocket motor is they are too powerful and too fast. From watching You Tube video's I think slow and controlled burning is better way to go. The advantage of the Sugar Fuel is it doesn't explode (Ka Boom) like the Black Powder motors or Fireworks can. Anyway I may build a Display Model F 14 Tomcat with a Rapier motor mount set up. I can test it out via elastic band catapult.
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Mitch » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:04 am

Guys...

Here is what I know about rocket powered models...

1. They MUST be built LIGHT.
2. Jets with twin engines will still be powered by ONE model rocket motor.
3. Jetex Motors are OOP and Raiper engines are NOT available.
4. Estes model Rocket Engines are designed for model Rockets, NOT model Jets.

Looking at the current line up in Guillow's Catalog I think the F-16a looks to be the best candidate for a rocket powered conversion.

I have a few model jet/rocket powered plane kits. They are from AreoMasters in the UK, EasyBuilt in USA. They are not expensive, and come with contest balsa. I built the skeletons, and plan to finish them as prop driven by rubber power. The Me-163 Komet and Bell X-1 will only be flown as gliders as the wing passes though the fuselage and prevents a rubber motor. I also have one OOP kit from Comet, the Cougar.

If anyone REALLY needs to make a Guillow jet fly... I would suggest buy kit 1403, the Falcon. Build it as a static model and then buy some contest balsa and use the plans and your knowledge to build a single engine jet... You will also need to make your own engine. :?

For now I am staying with Rubber Power. FAC rules allow modern jets to be flown with a propeller and rubber power. :D

Mitch
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby WIDDOG » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:16 pm

Here is a real good video on the homemade Sugar Rocket Fuel. http://youtu.be/7Jz0itUM1UU
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Steve Blanchard » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:18 am

Just to add to or dispell a couple of Mitch's points. Light is relative. There needs to be a bit more sturdiness in a rapier powered plane for flight trimming crashes (there is no low or hand winds). So they are not as light as rubber powered models. Google Mike Stuarts flying scale models for a great tutorial and tons of videos and information. Also there have been several rapier powered models with multiple engines that used multiple rapier rockets. Google Chris Starleaf rapier powered and you'll see a 6 engine plane that flew successfully on 4 motors but was destroyed when trying for all 6. Still let's you know that you can do more than 1 at a time. The real trick is lighting them all at once. Don't know what to say about how to make them go at this point as Mitch is correct that they are not available any longer.

Steve
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Steve Blanchard » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:39 pm

David,

When someone builds for Rapier power or any other source of rocket propulsion they create an aluminum trough for the motor to sit in and protect the flammable areas from the rocket itself. There still have been instances of fire damage. Usually when there is a flaw in the planning or a damage that goes unnoticed in the trough itself. Another reason why rapier powered jets just are not all that light.

Steve
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby WIDDOG » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:29 pm

Picture of the bottom of a Rapier model. I believe the aluminum trough is made out of aluminum tape that they use on automobiles. Image

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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby WIDDOG » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:12 pm

Actually they didn't stop making Rapier motors. The Government calls them Fireworks now and blah blah blah they don't ship them anymore. I think Rapier motors are safe compared to other fireworks i.e. black cats, Roman candles or screaming meemies? ladyfingers,buzz bottles, snicker bombs......church burners, finger blasters, gut busters, zippedy-doodas, crap flappers? whistling bungholes......spleen splitters, whisker biscuits, honkey lighters, Hüsker Düs and don'ts.Cherry bombs, nipsy dazers, with or without the scooter stick...

...or one single whistling kitty-chaser?
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Wildpig » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:28 pm

Steve Blanchard wrote:David,

When someone builds for Rapier power or any other source of rocket propulsion they create an aluminum trough for the motor to sit in and protect the flammable areas from the rocket itself. There still have been instances of fire damage. Usually when there is a flaw in the planning or a damage that goes unnoticed in the trough itself. Another reason why rapier powered jets just are not all that light.

Steve



I think he was being facetious.
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Mitch » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:37 am

That is a very nice picture of the bottom of the Bell X-1, On my model I did not make the flame trough, and engine clip. I cut out the frames for a complete fuselage (The kit is on printed on balsa) I plan to fly my X-1 as a catapult glider. I got some orange paper recently and plan to make mine in High Visibility Orange as the "Glamours Glennis"
Image
I'll let you chemists work out the formula for sugar rocket fuel. For now I stick with my rubber bands. Mitch :D

PS: I miss typed before... these kits are Areo Graphics. They are about 30 dollars. You don't get much but it is contest balsa. The kits from Easy Built are about 15 dollars. They have about 8 jet models.
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby WIDDOG » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:04 am

Wow Mitch that Bell SX 1 is the kit I want! I have put in a inquiry to Sam's Models in the UK. I would like to know if the Plans show the Parts cut outs or not. Sam's sells the kit or just the plans sheet. I don't know which to order. Where did you get your SX 1 kit? I would like to get the whole kit but the shipping is a bit expensive from Sam's.

I have read about a catapult that is basically a stake in the ground with a maybe 12 foot long elastic band that launches the model. Is that how the catapult system works?

Image

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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Mitch » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:47 am

To all JET and ROCKET plane fans,

As in Dave's last post a good source in the USA is from Shorty's Basement:

I once ordered from SAM's UK, but after I found "Shorty" that has become my source for Areo Master kits and other hard to find items. I also buy kits from Easy Built and have there Mig-15, and Panther Kits. The Panther was Out of Stock for quite a while, but recently is Back in Stock.

WARNING: ALL of these kits are PRINTED on the Balsa. They do NOT show all the parts in the plans. (That is what Guillows does, but NO ONE else)

You MUST buy the kit to build the model. I photo copied the sheets of balsa, so I have a record of what the parts look like before I cut them out. I was very careful and able to cut out the fuselage frames in there entirety. (They are drawn with the trough cut away for the engine) So my model will ONLY be for catapult launch. The wing of the X-1 passes right though the fuselage so there is no way to install a rubber motor. The same is true for the Me-163 Komet.

I also have a kit for the Me 262 Twin engine jet. The Jet nacelles are dummies and the Rapier Rocket motor is to be installed the the lower fuselage as ALL of these kits! For that kit I first just bought the plans, but latter ended up buying the kit.

Mitch :P

UPDATE: Just found this on ebay: Look at the extra pictures of what's in the boxes!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-3-Vintag ... 2583404636

From 1948: Obviously display models but maybe someone could use the plans to build a "Flying Ship" :twisted:
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby WIDDOG » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:23 pm

Well I made my first batch of sugar rocket fuel and test fired it. I have a lot to learn but everything went ok. I have learned quite a bit about sugar propellant. Actually it is much safer than gasoline or black powder.
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Re: Rapier Madness.

Postby Wildpig » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:09 pm

Interesting.

Any idea of the potential thrust? Or as rocket scientists put it: specific impulse.
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